In what follows, I will refer to the following references: The Annotated Hobbit, 2nd edition, by Posts above (the second link) and Conrad's initial replies to both of The recent debate its primary advocates have been myself and Conradĭunkerson for reference, see my response to the earlier of Michael's The original responses may give a clearer picture of the status of theīeen advocated by various people, generally in response to assertions Resulting comments and criticism into account to some degree, reading While this updated version attempts to take the Jun 2004 and inspired substantial discussion you can find it with Finally, this essay itself was posted to the newsgroups on 27 This link is provided only for reference in theīelow it has clearly been superseded by the more polished discussionĪbove. That message was reposted on 20 June 2004 with Message-ID: This discussion was written after Conrad DunkersonĪnd I provided detailed responses to a repost of an earlier message of Statement of the position can be found in a post of 23 June 2004Įntitled "One Thrain or Two: A detailed textual history", which can beįound at Google Groups by its Message-ID: History of the debateĪdvocated primarily by Michael Martinez. And bothĪlso agree that by the time that Tolkien wrote the author's note for Thorin's father was Thrain and his grandfather was Thror. Introduce the earlier Thrain until he was preparing the secondīoth sides apparently agree that in The Hobbit's prepublication state, there was Imagined that Thorin's grandfather Thror was the originalįounder of the realm of Erebor. Published, Tolkien only imagined one ancestor of Thorin Had two ancestors named "Thrain": his father and a remoteĪncestor who founded the realm of Erebor long before Thorin'sĮssential point of the " One Thrain" position Published, Tolkien had knowingly decided that Thorin Oakenshield Referenced later may be more authoritative): Have not been approved by all participants, so the specific posts Summarize the two positions as follows (but note that these summaries There to have been only one Thrain or two. Tolkien first invented that character: whether at the time that heįirst published The Hobbit he intended for In particular, the recent discussion has focused on when
The textual history of the character "Thrain I", whom TolkienĮventually established as the founder of the Dwarvish kingdom underĮrebor.
Much discussion has occurred (both recently and in the past) about Position described below, and thus the main conclusion of this essay,īut I have yet to make any effort to check the validity of the Of this issue (though certainly a less focused one). Hobbit" volumes, which give a far more authoritative treatment Publication of John Rateliff's "History of The (from watching or participating in a previous discussion, forĮxample), odds are that you won't get much out of what follows.įinally, I have made no attempt to revise this essay since the If you don't already know what the basic issue is This essay is about a rather obscure point of In case their browser formats this poorly.)
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